1 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:09,877 Previously on The Hack... 2 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:11,877 I'm friends with Clare Rewcastle Brown, 3 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:15,877 the journalist and sister-in-law of Gordon Brown. 4 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:16,878 'He's leaning in.' 5 00:00:16,961 --> 00:00:19,877 Murdoch's ambition is limitless, but he's overstepped here. 6 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:21,877 Part of a new operation, Operation Weeting. 7 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:24,877 We're investigating allegations of phone hacking. 8 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:28,877 Contact of mine in the force has been put on it. He's feeding me. 9 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:30,877 DAVE: This fell into your lap, OK? 10 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:32,877 NICK: 'This could get you in serious trouble.' 11 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:35,877 Hello. 'Dave, it's Mike at The Sun.' 12 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:37,877 Give Panorama, Mike Sullivan, 13 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:40,877 Nick Davies anything about our cases, 14 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:42,877 and you'll be strung up for all to see. 15 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,877 NICK: I was in the database. News Of The World, April 14th, 2002. 16 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:47,878 Milly Dowler. 17 00:00:47,961 --> 00:00:50,877 AMELIA: 'Jingle says there is a page on Dowler in Marquez' notebooks.' 18 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:52,877 The News Of The World will not be forgiven for this. 19 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:56,877 I was being drawn to stories again and again with the same theme. 20 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:59,877 A deep-seated urge to hit back at anybody at all 21 00:00:59,960 --> 00:01:02,960 who takes power and abuses it. 22 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:08,877 WOMAN: Our guest now joining us from the newsroom of The Guardian 23 00:01:08,960 --> 00:01:11,877 is Nick Davies, award-winning journalist 24 00:01:11,960 --> 00:01:13,877 who has brought phone hacking into the light. 25 00:01:13,960 --> 00:01:17,557 Hi. Now, Nick Davies... 26 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:20,877 could you have predicted the furore 27 00:01:20,960 --> 00:01:23,237 that the Milly Dowler case seems to have caused? 28 00:01:23,320 --> 00:01:24,877 Predicted? No. 29 00:01:24,960 --> 00:01:27,877 But I do think it speaks well for the British public, 30 00:01:27,960 --> 00:01:31,877 for the world public, that a furore has been provoked. 31 00:01:31,960 --> 00:01:34,877 You have Rupert Murdoch firmly on the ropes. 32 00:01:34,960 --> 00:01:38,397 I have to say, I'm horrified that they closed the News Of The World. 33 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:40,877 Good journalists have lost their jobs. 34 00:01:40,960 --> 00:01:44,877 I believe this was a cynical move on Murdoch's part 35 00:01:44,960 --> 00:01:47,237 to help aid his capture of BSkyB. 36 00:01:47,320 --> 00:01:49,877 'And what do you think it is about the Milly Dowler case 37 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:50,878 'that has had such an impact?' 38 00:01:50,961 --> 00:01:52,877 Well, what we discovered 39 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:55,877 was that during the period of her disappearance, 40 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:58,717 News Of The World were using a private investigator 41 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:00,237 to listen to her voice mails, 42 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:02,877 so that, in itself, is horrid, deeply personal stuff. 43 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:05,877 Friends and family still thought she may have run away 44 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:07,877 and were imploring her to come home. 45 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:08,917 The voicemail filled up, 46 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:11,877 which is why they deleted the messages. 47 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:13,877 Now, friends and family 48 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:16,237 who had previously heard the message, voicemail, full 49 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:17,877 were surprised by this, 50 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:20,877 and the presumption became that Milly was still alive. 51 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:24,877 'I guess we all wanna know whether Rupert Murdoch will feature 52 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:26,877 'in front of your Leveson Inquiry and what...' Ah. Ah. 53 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:30,877 Well, before Leveson, actually, Rupert Murdoch is due to speak 54 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:33,077 at the House of Commons Media Select Committee. 55 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:34,877 We want to get answers from him 56 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:36,877 as to what he knew about phone hacking, 57 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:39,237 widespread practice at his newspaper, 58 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:42,877 when he knew about it, and why he didn't act. 59 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:45,877 'Nick Davies, thank you for joining us.' 60 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:47,960 Thank you for having me. 61 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:56,877 Whether Rupert bails on us, I don't know. You could compel him. 62 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:58,877 The thing you need to ask is 63 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:00,877 can you truly compel Murdoch to do anything? 64 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:02,877 Are we singing Happy Birthday? 65 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:05,877 So, who's getting to ask the first question? Well, I do. 66 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:08,877 Though Nick is intent on writing it for me. 67 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,877 GLASS CLINKING I think we should sing. 68 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:13,717 No. Happy Birthday is a terrible song. 69 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:15,877 Nick thinks Happy Birthday's fascistic. 70 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:16,917 It is culturally fascistic - 71 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:19,877 everyone has to sing the same song on their bloody birthday. 72 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:22,877 Where's the individuality? Well, we could sing, erm... 73 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:24,917 What's the one where we count the candles on the birthday cake? 74 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:27,877 Have we the energy? Oi. Well, speech. 75 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:30,877 At least we deserve a speech. Yes, yes. On your feet. 76 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:34,877 Er, no. But, OK, I would like to thank you all for coming. 77 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:37,877 And I would like to remind you we have work to do. 78 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:39,877 The Select Committee... Boo! 79 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:42,877 The Select Committee is our chance, with Murdoch on the stand... 80 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:43,878 And I won't let you down. 81 00:03:43,961 --> 00:03:47,237 No, no, no, Tom, I'm not saying... Maybe I should have let you retire. 82 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:49,557 You were gonna retire? Move to Belgium. 83 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:50,877 Ah. Chocolate. 84 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:53,877 And then with Leveson making sure we're fully prepared... 85 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:55,877 Nick... Nick, today, we celebrate. 86 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:58,877 A prep session would've been much more preferable to a birthday. 87 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:00,877 Not only are the songs fascistic, 88 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,077 but Nick thinks birthdays are narcissistic. 89 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:04,877 He likes to work. True. 90 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:06,877 How nice, then, that none of his friends came, 91 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:08,877 just the people he works with. 92 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:11,077 Now you're treading a very fine line between insulting... Sod this. 93 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:14,877 ♪ Happy birthday to you... ♪ Oh, God. 94 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,877 ♪ Happy birthday to you... ♪ Oh, God. 95 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:21,877 ♪ Happy birthday, dear Nick 96 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:25,960 ♪ Happy Birthday to you. ♪ 97 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,640 CAMERA CLICKS 98 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:36,960 CAMERA CLICKS 99 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:48,878 Hi. Hi. 100 00:04:48,961 --> 00:04:50,877 So, good news and bad news. 101 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:53,877 Good news, it's all cooking nicely for the Select Committee. 102 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:57,077 The bad news, you are gonna have to give evidence at Leveson. 103 00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:58,877 It needs your heft. It needs... 104 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:01,877 Look, Alan's house may have been compromised. What? 105 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:04,237 He hired someone to sweep his house for bugs. 106 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:05,877 That person subcontracted it. 107 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:08,877 The person they subcontracted it to... 108 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:11,320 Worked for Rees? ..was an associate of Rees. 109 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:13,917 How do you know? I can't tell you. 110 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,877 But I know Rees has been bragging about how he knows the bug sweeper. 111 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:18,877 Are you sure? 112 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:21,717 Ask Alan about the socks he keeps under the piano. 113 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:22,877 What socks? 114 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:25,877 Oh, Christ. It's true?! 115 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:27,877 I like, erm... 116 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:31,717 I get a better feel for the piano if I play barefoot. 117 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:34,557 Alan, you do not have good hiring practices. 118 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:36,397 Seems possible to claim. 119 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:38,877 You hired someone to debug your house, 120 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:40,877 and instead, they may have compromised... 121 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:42,160 Are my children in danger? 122 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:46,877 Dave doesn't think so. Don't know about you and me. 123 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:48,960 We've got Murdoch on the stand. 124 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:51,877 They know they're being hunted. 125 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:54,877 Cornered animal, the most vicious animal of all. 126 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:56,960 Fuck. 127 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:00,960 SIGHS 128 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:03,960 I thought the worst of it was over. 129 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:06,878 HORN BEEPS 130 00:06:06,961 --> 00:06:09,877 The day after Cameron announced the Leveson Inquiry 131 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:11,877 into phone hacking, the CMS Select Committee 132 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:15,877 issued an order summoning Rupert Murdoch and his son James 133 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:18,077 to attend parliament on the 19th of July 134 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:20,960 to basically explain themselves. 135 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:25,877 The significance of this moment was not lost on any of us. 136 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:28,557 If we asked the right questions, we could ensnare them, 137 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:31,960 both of them, father and son. 138 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:42,960 DOOR OPENS 139 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:50,960 WHITTINGDALE: OK, everyone, settle now, please. 140 00:06:57,960 --> 00:06:58,917 We are now in session. 141 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:02,717 Mr Watson will ask the first question. 142 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:04,877 Mr Murdoch Sr, Mr Murdoch Jr, 143 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:07,877 good afternoon, thanks for coming in today. 144 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:11,877 My first question is for Mr Murdoch Sr. 145 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:13,877 You have repeatedly stated 146 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:18,397 that News Corp has zero tolerance to wrongdoing by employees. 147 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:19,877 Is that right? 148 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:21,237 Is that me? 149 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:22,960 Yes. 150 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:27,877 In October 2010, did you still believe it to be true 151 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:30,877 when you made your Thatcher speech and you said, 152 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:34,397 "Let me be clear. We will vigorously pursue the truth, 153 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:36,877 "and we will not tolerate wrongdoing"? 154 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:38,877 Yes. 155 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:43,877 So if you were not lying then, somebody lied to you. 156 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:45,877 Who was it? I don't know. 157 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:47,877 That is what the police are investigating 158 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:49,877 and we are helping them with. 159 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:51,877 But you acknowledge that you were misled? 160 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:53,877 Clearly. 161 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,877 If I can take you to... WHISPERS: He's doing... 162 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,877 ...2006, when Clive Goodman was arrested 163 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:05,877 and subsequently convicted of intercepting voice mails, 164 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:07,960 were you made aware of that? 165 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:11,877 I think so. I was certainly made aware of when they were convicted. 166 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:14,877 And what did News International do 167 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:18,877 subsequent to the arrest of Clive Goodman and Glenn Mulcaire 168 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:20,877 to get to the facts? 169 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:24,877 We worked with the police on further investigation, 170 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:27,877 and eventually, we appointed, very quickly appointed, 171 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:31,877 a very leading firm of lawyers in the City 172 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:33,877 to investigate it further. 173 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:36,877 What did you personally do to investigate that? 174 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:39,077 After Mr Goodman went to prison, you... 175 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:41,877 you were obviously concerned about it. 176 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:43,960 I spoke to Mr, erm... 177 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:48,960 ...Hinton, who told me about it. 178 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:50,960 OK. 179 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:55,877 In 2008, another two years, 180 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:57,877 why did you not dismiss 181 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:00,877 News Of The World chief reporter Neville Thurlbeck 182 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:02,000 following the Mosley case? 183 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:04,640 I'd never heard of him. 184 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:07,877 So none of your UK staff 185 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:10,877 drew your attention to this serious wrongdoing, 186 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:13,877 even though the case received widespread media attention? 187 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:16,877 I think my son can perhaps answer that in more detail. 188 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:18,877 He was a lot closer to it. 189 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:20,960 I will come to your son in a minute. 190 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:26,960 Can I ask you, when did you first meet Mr Alex Marunchak? 191 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:31,960 Mr...? 192 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:34,877 Alex Marunchak. 193 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,877 He worked for the company for 25 years. 194 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:39,237 I don't remember meeting him. 195 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:41,877 I might have shaken hands walking through the office, 196 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:43,877 but I don't have any memory. 197 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:47,877 Mr Murdoch Sr, you seem to indicate 198 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:52,877 that you had a rather hands-off approach to your company. 199 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:54,877 Could you just give us an illustration 200 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:58,877 of how often you would speak to the editors of your newspapers? 201 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:01,877 For example, how often you would speak to the editor of The Sun, 202 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:04,960 or to the editor of the News Of The World. 203 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:08,877 Erm, very seldom. 204 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:10,877 Sometimes, I'd ring the editor of the News Of The World 205 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:13,877 on a Saturday night and say, "Have you got any news tonight?" 206 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:15,877 But it was just to keep in touch. 207 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:21,557 Well, I'm intrigued as to how these conversations might go. 208 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:24,877 I imagine that to the editor of the News Of The World, 209 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:27,917 it might go along the lines of, "Anything to report?" 210 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:30,877 And the editor of the News Of The World says, 211 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:35,717 "No, no, it's been a standard week. We paid Gordon Taylor £600,000." 212 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:36,877 LAUGHTER 213 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:38,877 He never said that last sentence. 214 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:40,877 Well, I mean, surely in your weekly conversation 215 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:42,877 with the editor of the News Of The World, 216 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:45,877 with something as big as that, paying someone a million pounds, 217 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:48,717 paying someone £700,000, 218 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:50,877 I mean, surely you'd have expected the editor 219 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:53,877 to just drop it into the conversation at some point 220 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:55,877 during your weekly chat. 221 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:57,080 No, I'd say, "What's doing?" 222 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,160 Sorry? I'd say, "What's doing?" 223 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:05,877 And what sort of response would you expect? 224 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:08,877 Well, he might say, "We've got a great story exposing X or Y," 225 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:12,237 or he would say, more likely, "Nothing special." 226 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:15,077 He might refer to the fact that however many extra pages 227 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:16,877 were dedicated to the football that week. 228 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:20,877 But he wouldn't tell you about a million-pound pay-off? 229 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:23,877 Er, I just want to say that... 230 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:26,877 I was brought up by a father who was not rich 231 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:28,877 but who was a great journalist. 232 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:31,877 And he, just before he died, bought a small paper, 233 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:33,877 specifically in his will, 234 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:36,877 saying he was giving me the chance to do good. 235 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:40,877 Now, I remember what he did and what he was most proud of 236 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:41,917 and for which he was hated in this country 237 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:44,877 by many people for many, many years, 238 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:48,237 which was to expose the scandal at Gallipoli, 239 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:50,557 which I remain very, very proud of. 240 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:52,877 I think that all students of history will be... 241 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:54,960 Scheming...! CLAMOUR 242 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:01,960 Erm, the-the sitting is suspended. 243 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:05,878 Fuck it. 244 00:12:05,961 --> 00:12:08,877 WOMAN ON TV: 'The defence told the court 245 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:11,877 'the father-of-one from Windsor had wanted to show his revulsion 246 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:13,877 'over the scandal at News International. 247 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:14,878 'He'd admitted assault...' 248 00:12:14,961 --> 00:12:17,877 If I get my hands on that fool... He's in custody. 249 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:19,877 He thinks, what, that his amateur dramatics 250 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:22,237 are more useful than what we were doing in that room? 251 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:24,877 Good questions were asked. Yeah, and they weren't answered. 252 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:28,960 And that obfuscation is important. Or it was. 253 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:35,397 Oh, God, that... awful senile act Murdoch was putting on, 254 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:36,877 that needed writing about. 255 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:39,877 But now, every paper will carry one thing and one thing only - 256 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:42,877 Wendi Murdoch fighting for her man. 257 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,877 You're worrying too much, Nick. You don't understand news cycles. 258 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:48,877 Well, there's still Leveson. Yeah, nothing else but Leveson. 259 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:52,557 There is no air but Leveson. If Leveson doesn't produce... 260 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,877 Then what? You gonna hide under a tea towel for the rest of your life? 261 00:12:55,960 --> 00:13:00,877 Look, Nick, a serious inquiry led by quite a clever bloke 262 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:02,877 is happening because of your journalism. 263 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:06,397 It could mean regulation, ethics, 264 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:08,877 maybe even an appropriate relationship 265 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:11,077 between press, politicians and police. 266 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:12,877 When did you become the positive one? 267 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:14,397 Oh, fuck off. 268 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:17,877 Lord Leveson's report's given us a new press and a new Dave Cook. 269 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:20,960 Fuck off. Twice. 270 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:25,960 INAUDIBLE 271 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:37,877 What's the latest with the Select Committee? 272 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:39,877 Get James Murdoch back in. On what grounds? 273 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:43,960 Clarity on whether or not he was told about the Neville email. 274 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:49,717 Why are there police officers in our newsroom? 275 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:50,877 What? 276 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:52,960 PHONE RINGS 277 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:59,877 They want to talk to Amelia. Amelia? What about? 278 00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:01,960 They're citing the Official Secrets Act. 279 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:10,877 PHONE RINGS 280 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:12,717 Yeah? NICK: 'Hi. Where are you?' 281 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:14,960 On my way somewhere. Can't tell you where. 282 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:18,877 Amelia, this is Alan. 283 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:20,960 'Alan, I'm just on my way to meet someone.' 284 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:24,960 What's going on? 'I think you should come in.' 285 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:29,877 They're upstairs. They won't leave until they've spoken to you. 286 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:32,480 No. No way. Not without a lawyer. Agreed. 287 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:34,878 They don't like my biscuits, 288 00:14:34,961 --> 00:14:36,960 and they don't like my small talk about Chopin. 289 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:39,877 They're saying they need your notebooks. 290 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:41,877 If you can't find your notebooks, 291 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:43,877 they'll get a warrant and enter your flat. 292 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:46,877 They're also saying if the notebooks aren't in your flat, 293 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:47,878 they could visit your mother. 294 00:14:47,961 --> 00:14:50,917 Tell them I'm not going to give up my source or my notes. 295 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:52,877 I'd rather go to prison. 296 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:54,320 Right. 297 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:58,237 Good. 298 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:00,877 I'll contact some friends, give you some recommendations, 299 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:03,877 or you can find a lawyer yourself, a human rights specialist. 300 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:06,960 This will get leaked, right? I'd expect so. 301 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:09,877 But you might need to stay somewhere else tonight, 302 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:11,877 a friend's or... Is this what happens? 303 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:14,557 We were exposing them, not the other way around. 304 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:16,237 It isn't what happens. 305 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:18,960 But it does seem to be what's happening. 306 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:22,320 I'm so sorry. 307 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,960 DIALLING TONE 308 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:32,877 DAVE: 'Hi.' 309 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:35,960 Hi. How are you? 310 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:38,960 I'm OK. 311 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:41,877 I'm calling about Leveson. 312 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:45,877 Erm, I'm going to apply to be a core participant. 313 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:48,077 The group, Hacked Off, I don't know if you've... Yeah, yeah. 314 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:49,877 Well, they saw the Channel 4 interview, 315 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:51,917 and they've been pretty insistent that I say something. 316 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:53,960 Not that they're making me, erm... 317 00:15:57,960 --> 00:15:59,877 They seem very good people. 318 00:15:59,960 --> 00:16:01,877 'They don't really have anyone to talk to about the Met 319 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:04,877 'from the inside, and I think that's why they want me.' 320 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:06,960 Oh, they have you, and they have me. 321 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:12,237 You're doing it, too? I registered yesterday. 322 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:14,077 I was gonna email. 323 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:15,877 'There are implications.' 324 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:17,960 Sure. For the kids. 325 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:22,800 We'll have to speak to their school, their friends. We could be targets. 326 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:25,960 Why is it worse me doing it than you? 327 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:31,960 Because of Daniel Morgan, because the case collapsed. 328 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:34,877 They said you were feeding lines to a witness. 329 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:37,877 You don't think they're gonna use that against you if you give evi...? 330 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:40,077 No, no, listen, listen, Jacqui. 331 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:43,960 I just want this out there, same as you do, OK? 332 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:49,960 KNOCKING ON DOOR 333 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:55,877 Hi, Nick. Sue Akers. I hope I'm not disturbing you. 334 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:57,877 Deputy Assistant Commissioner, this is quite... 335 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:01,397 Call me Sue, please. ..quite the surprise, Sue. 336 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:05,000 I was hoping you might have a moment to make me a cup of tea. 337 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:09,877 Of course I do. Yeah, of course. Come in. Sorry. 338 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:10,960 Through here. Thanks. 339 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:19,877 You're coming to my house, not a short distance, on a Saturday. 340 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:23,877 So... whatever this is can't be good. 341 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:27,960 I mean, I have to assume... it can't be good at all. 342 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,960 Maybe take a seat. Oh, God. 343 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,557 Nick, I'm afraid that part of the story you published 344 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:39,320 about Milly Dowler is inaccurate. 345 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:41,878 Inaccurate how? 346 00:17:41,961 --> 00:17:44,877 It looks likely that the News Of The World 347 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:47,877 did not delete voice messages from Milly Dowler's phone. 348 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:50,877 It's probable it was the phone company. 349 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:53,237 That's not... I have... I have two separate sources. 350 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:58,077 The network she used automatically deleted messages after 72 hours. 351 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:00,877 That's how we presume they were wiped. 352 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:04,237 You're using words like presumed, probable, likely. 353 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:06,557 And we believe those deletions happened 354 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,960 prior to Glenn Mulcaire being instructed to get inside her phone. 355 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:12,960 Before Mulcaire? 356 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:19,077 Nick, I came here in person to acknowledge all you've done. 357 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,877 Without you, Weeting is impossible. 358 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:25,077 Without you... You can't know for certain 359 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:26,397 who deleted what. 360 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:30,960 I'm sorry. We'll be releasing a statement to correct the record. 361 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:34,917 The article said messages were deleted by journalists 362 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:37,877 in the first few days after Milly's disappearance. 363 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:40,877 That's the only inaccuracy. It's a large one. 364 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,877 I have a good source which tells me 365 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:46,877 Surrey Police turned off the automatic deletion system 366 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:47,878 on the fourth day, 367 00:18:47,961 --> 00:18:50,917 and some voicemail appeared to have been deleted after. 368 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:52,800 Will they sue? 369 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:54,960 No. Sure? 370 00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:58,717 They were inside the phone? Yes. 371 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:00,877 They may have subsequently deleted messages. 372 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:02,877 My source tells me they did. I believe my source. 373 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:05,960 Then there is too much for them to lose in court. 374 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:08,878 Right. 375 00:19:08,961 --> 00:19:11,917 Well, then we issue a retraction and an apology. Bah! 376 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:13,917 We made a mistake. We may not have! 377 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:16,877 We made a mistake, Nick, but there we are. 378 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:18,877 Ten lashes for you, ten lashes for me. 379 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,557 Sue Akers agrees with most of our story. 380 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:22,877 They did hack the phone. 381 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:26,800 Surrey Police did know about it, surely. I have two priorities. 382 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:29,237 That they don't use this 383 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:31,877 to try and obfuscate the crime they have committed. 384 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:33,960 A dead girl's phone was hacked. 385 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:37,877 And my other priority is you. God! 386 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:39,960 What was that Carl Bernstein quote? 387 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:44,237 All great reporting is the same thing - 388 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:46,877 best obtainable version of the truth. 389 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,960 I'm gonna be absolutely monstered. 390 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:53,877 It serves them very well to try and destroy your reputation. 391 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:55,000 I don't want to apologise. 392 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:57,877 Then don't. 393 00:19:57,960 --> 00:19:59,557 The paper has to. You don't. 394 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:05,557 Stand up, put on some iron underwear, and fight. 395 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:07,320 INHALES SHARPLY 396 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:12,877 The monstering was high-energy. Fuck you! 397 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:16,397 Doubt turned into certainty that we had got it wrong. 398 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:17,557 Fuck you! 399 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:19,557 Richard Caseby, managing editor of The Sun, 400 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:20,877 told the House of Lords Committee 401 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:22,877 that Alan Rusbridger had sexed up his investigation 402 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:24,877 into phone hacking. Fuck you! 403 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:26,877 Rod Liddle in the Sunday Times 404 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:28,877 said boldly The Guardian had made it up. 405 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:29,960 Shame on you. 406 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:32,640 But beneath all... 407 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:37,877 ...beneath all that exaggeration and hostility 408 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:41,557 was the fact that I had stated as a fact 409 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:43,960 something which now appeared to be untrue. 410 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:50,640 I had damaged myself, and I'd exposed The Guardian. 411 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:53,877 So, how are you enjoying it? 412 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:56,877 Yeah, it's quite a thing. To be outside your house? 413 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:00,077 Whatever fuel they have they're readying to throw in the fire. 414 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,917 So why are you so calm? Oh, I'm an optimist/pessimist. 415 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,877 I presume I'm capable of great things 416 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:08,917 and yet assume the worst's about to happen. 417 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:10,877 You always thought you'd be found out. 418 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:11,878 My mother said I would be. 419 00:21:11,961 --> 00:21:14,877 Maybe I should be an optimist/pessimist. 420 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:18,960 I wouldn't recommend. It does horrible things to your guts. 421 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:21,960 You're really going to New York? 422 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,877 The police haven't charged me. I'm free to go. 423 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,960 But you could just stay here. Yesterday's stale toast in no time. 424 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:32,077 The Evening Standard 425 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,717 tried to do a story about me sleeping with my source. 426 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:38,397 A few weeks later, they rang and said I was sleeping with an MP. 427 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:40,717 Wrong Amelia, and she's married to him. 428 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,960 Yep. I just... I can't. 429 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,480 I don't want to be the story. 430 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:50,877 No. 431 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:53,237 No, I'm not sure I do, either. 432 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:56,877 Luckily, they had a booking free for me on Newsnight tonight, 433 00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:59,877 and Jeremy Paxman's a notoriously kind interviewer (!) 434 00:21:59,960 --> 00:22:01,877 You're going on Newsnight? Yeah. 435 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,960 Against whoever News International think will do me most damage. 436 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,480 But, you know, steel underpants filled with stale toast. Be fine. 437 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:16,960 If I don't come back... 438 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:21,960 I mean, I want to say something. 439 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:27,877 When this is all done and they tell the story of it, 440 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,960 you know, when you look back or write about it... 441 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:33,960 ...don't paint me as your protege. 442 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,877 I mean, I've been at this a long time. 443 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:41,877 I worked Jingle across multiple cases for years. 444 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,237 I mean, it was your story, 445 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:46,877 and Milly would've never happened without you. 446 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:48,877 But it wouldn't have happened without me, either. 447 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:49,878 You don't need to say anything. 448 00:22:49,961 --> 00:22:51,877 Don't let them whitewash the other people out. 449 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:53,877 Don't need to say any of this. 450 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,640 I actually do. 451 00:22:57,960 --> 00:22:59,320 You have my word. 452 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:03,960 OK. 453 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:09,717 Email me when you get there. 454 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:10,917 If Paxman hasn't killed you first (!) 455 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:12,960 Then email my corpse. 456 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:15,800 Good luck, Nick. 457 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:24,960 NEWSNIGHT THEME PLAYS 458 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,877 JEREMY: Tonight, who knew what and when in the phone hacking scandal? 459 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:37,877 Could James Murdoch really have been unaware? 460 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,877 Why did The Guardian claim the News Of The World 461 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:42,877 deleted voice messages when they had no evidence? 462 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:44,877 It was The Guardian newspaper's claims, 463 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,877 stated as fact, that they'd been erased by the News Of The World, 464 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:49,877 which triggered the shutdown of what was once 465 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,877 the biggest-selling paper in the English-speaking world. 466 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:54,877 Nick Davies, let's cut to the chase. 467 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,960 What you claim to be a fact wasn't a fact, was it? 468 00:23:59,960 --> 00:24:02,397 NICK ON TV: 'The story we published in July 469 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:04,877 'was squarely based on the evidence available, 470 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,877 'correct in saying that her voicemail was deleted.' 471 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,877 And it remains the case that News International are not denying 472 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:12,877 that News Of The World journalists 473 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:14,877 may have been responsible for those deletions. 474 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,877 Well, let's look at the front page here. Yeah. 475 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:19,877 "News Of The World hacked Milly Dowler's phone 476 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:21,717 "during police hunt." Exactly. 477 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:23,877 Then, "The paper deleted missing schoolgirl's voice mails", 478 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:25,877 "giving family false hope." Yeah. 479 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:26,878 And you say in the copy 480 00:24:26,961 --> 00:24:28,877 the messages were deleted by journalists 481 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,557 in the first few days after Milly's disappearance. 482 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,917 Everybody who was involved in that story accepted it was true. 483 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,557 It's a very interesting thing that... No, no, no. 484 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:39,917 ...when that story was done... No. No, no. 485 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,877 You're not allowing me to answer? No, because you're not answering. 486 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:44,877 You're not asking the right questions. 487 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,877 Oh, I'm sorry. JEREMY SCOFFS 488 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,877 Everybody... involved in that story 489 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,717 accepted that that story was true. 490 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:55,877 And you believed it to be true. ..and continued to accept 491 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:57,877 until four months later... Right, perhaps. 492 00:24:57,960 --> 00:24:59,877 ...new evidence which was not available, 493 00:24:59,960 --> 00:25:01,877 to everybody's surprise... You did not report it like that. 494 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:05,717 ...showed that one element of that story is now in doubt. 495 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:07,917 It has not been proved to be untrue. So you accept it wasn't true. 496 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,397 Jules Stenson was a features editor. What do you say? 497 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,877 Well, the key point to this as well is that this wasn't any old story. 498 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,877 This was a story that was the most important story 499 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:18,878 in The Guardian's history. 500 00:25:18,961 --> 00:25:22,877 It was vital that every single element of it should be right, 501 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,877 and Nick Davies repeated that allegation 34 times. 502 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:27,877 Let's get things in proportion here. 503 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,877 Your newspaper had hacked a murdered girl's telephone. 504 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:31,917 What we did was indefensible, 505 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,877 not just to Milly but to all the victims of hacking. 506 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:36,877 I'm not here to justify that in any way. 507 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,557 What I am here to do, though, is to attack the shoddy journalism 508 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:42,877 of The Guardian and the shoddy journalism of Nick. 509 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,877 This-This is a classic example of the way tabloid newspapers work. 510 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:47,877 You're in a heap of trouble because for years, 511 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:49,877 you personally have taken Murdoch's money 512 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:51,877 and ruined people's lives, 513 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,877 invaded people's privacy and engaged in criminal activity. 514 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:56,877 You've hired private investigators in the past 515 00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:58,877 who've broken the law, haven't you, Jules? 516 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:00,877 I'm not here to justify... Haven't you? 517 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:02,877 You accuse me of shoddy journalism 518 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:04,397 when your name is all over the records 519 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,877 of Steve Whittamore, private investigator, 520 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:08,917 convicted of using illegal means. Your name's there. 521 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:10,917 Information about Jamie Theakston, 522 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,877 about Anne Robinson, about Anna Friel... 523 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,877 There are public interest factors... Know what, Jules? Just stop. 524 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:18,877 Take a leaf out of Rupert Murdoch's book and get humble. 525 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:20,877 Or else just go quiet. 526 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,717 People don't believe you any more. Right. We're done being bullied 527 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:25,397 by you any more. We've had enough of you. 528 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:26,877 Two years after this, 529 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,960 Jules Stenson pled guilty to conspiracy to hack phones, but... 530 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,960 Well, I wish I knew that at this moment. 531 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,960 SOFT JAZZ MUSIC PLAYS 532 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,877 ♪ Do I want you? 533 00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,877 ♪ Oh, my, do I 534 00:26:59,960 --> 00:27:03,960 ♪ Honey, indeed I do 535 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:10,877 ♪ Do I need you? 536 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:12,877 ♪ Oh, why do... ♪ 537 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:14,877 BANGING ON DOOR 538 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,960 ♪ Honey, indeed I do. ♪ 539 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,000 Detective Chief Superintendent Dave Cook. 540 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:25,640 INAUDIBLE 541 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:42,960 PHONE BUZZES, SCRUBBING 542 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,160 BUZZING CONTINUES 543 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,917 Hello. 'Hi, Jacqui. It's Dave.' 544 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,877 David. What's this number? 545 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,877 Listen, Jacqui, I am... 546 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,877 I... I need you to pick up the kids. 547 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:06,877 'Where are you calling from?' 548 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,877 It's, erm... 549 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:11,877 It's actually a police station number, Jacqui. 550 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:13,960 I've been arrested. What? 551 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:16,960 On what charge? 552 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,960 It's misconduct, data protection. 553 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:24,960 I... 554 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,877 They raided the house. Well, did they find anything? 555 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:31,877 'Some old files.' 556 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,877 What files? What...? Why did you have files at home? 557 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:37,960 HINGES CREAK I don't... 558 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:41,320 'What the fuck are they doing?' 559 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:44,960 I don't know, Jacqui! 560 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:47,878 I don't know. 561 00:28:47,961 --> 00:28:49,877 What do we do? How can we help him? 562 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,877 GLEN: 'I'm not sure we're gonna help until we know what they have.' 563 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:54,877 Well, we have to do something. 564 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,877 'Nick, we both know he was passing information to both of us, 565 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,877 'and they've arrested Amelia's source. 566 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,397 'Sit tight. We'll find an answer.' 567 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:04,960 OK. Bye. 568 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:10,877 I don't know what you think you have here. 569 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,877 How about a cup of tea, sir? No. I would like to leave. 570 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:16,877 I'm supposed to be giving evidence tomorrow. 571 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,000 I'm a participant in Leveson. 572 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:23,960 But, then, I suppose you already know that. 573 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,160 This conversation is being recorded, so... Yes. 574 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,237 I understand that you've refused legal representation. Yes. 575 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,877 And I do need to check that you do fully understand your rights. 576 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,877 I'm 40 years in the police force, son. 577 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:41,877 Yes, I understand my rights. 578 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:43,877 Good. All right. 579 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:45,877 Let's start from the beginning, then, shall we? 580 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,960 Tell me about your relationship with the journalist Mike Sullivan. 581 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:52,077 No comment. 582 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:54,877 So you deny passing information to journalists? 583 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,877 And, as you know, police officers working for Operation Elveden... 584 00:29:57,960 --> 00:29:59,877 Operation Elveden is about bribery. 585 00:29:59,960 --> 00:30:02,237 I have never accepted money from a journalist in my life. 586 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:04,877 This is an operation looking into the corrupt relations 587 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:06,960 between police and the press. 588 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:10,237 News International sent us emails. 589 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,717 News International sent you emails? They were sent from their server. 590 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:14,877 Have you any idea...? 591 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:16,877 Do you deny you were in regular contact 592 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,640 with the journalist Mike Sullivan? 593 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,877 Mike Sullivan and I worked together. 594 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:28,877 It was John Yates who introduced us. 595 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,877 He had access to my investigation 596 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,237 in return for writing helpful articles in the newspaper. 597 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:36,877 I have done nothing 598 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,877 that a million police officers before me haven't done. 599 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:41,917 It is standard police practice. 600 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,960 So you did nothing wrong? Nothing. 601 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,717 Forty years in the police service 602 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:52,960 and you didn't know you broke the law? 603 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:56,160 Shame on you. 604 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,960 SHARP RINGING IN DAVE'S HEAD 605 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,000 RINGING CONTINUES 606 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,917 They're trying to get us all. They're waiting for any mistake. 607 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,960 Then let's try not to make any mistakes. Come inside. 608 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:51,960 DOOR CLOSES 609 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,960 Lindsay found a spare duvet from somewhere. 610 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:03,000 I don't need to stay. You should. I'd like you to. 611 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:06,877 Doing a sleepover with the editor of The Guardian? 612 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,960 Not editor. Friend. 613 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,877 This... This may not be entirely comfortable. 614 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:16,877 I should be helping. 615 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:18,960 Yes, you should. 616 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:22,877 A journalist running away to America, 617 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:24,877 two police officers under arrest. 618 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,877 You're so paranoid, you're having this house periodically debugged, 619 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:28,917 and it's... 620 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,960 It's all your fault. SIGHING: Yeah. 621 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:35,960 You remember when we first met? 622 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,717 I felt like a child who'd forgot his pencil. 623 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:45,877 You were so thrusting, and, well, I wasn't. 624 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:47,960 But you were ambitious. Hugely. 625 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,917 Compensating for who knows what? 626 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,877 And I thought, "Well, if everyone at The Guardian's like him", 627 00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,877 "I'm done for." NICK LAUGHS 628 00:32:57,960 --> 00:32:58,878 Thankfully, they weren't. 629 00:32:58,961 --> 00:33:02,960 And thankfully, as it turns out, I had something to offer you... 630 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:06,960 ...as you had something to offer me. 631 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:10,480 Nick... 632 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,877 ...don't mistake the fact you were first through the door 633 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:16,917 with the fact that everyone else 634 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,480 went through the same door willingly. 635 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,917 The sacrifices weren't for you. They were for your cause. 636 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,877 You're part of a team, Nick. 637 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,320 The funny thing is, you always have been. 638 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:32,960 I think he's gonna get away with it... 639 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:35,878 ...Murdoch. 640 00:33:35,961 --> 00:33:38,960 I think he's gonna get away with it. Perhaps. 641 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,877 Perhaps that's what abusers do. 642 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:45,960 Get away with things. 643 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:48,960 Or perhaps not. 644 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:50,960 Not really. Maybe... 645 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:53,320 Maybe... 646 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,960 ...deep down inside them, there's just... 647 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:01,960 ...damage. 648 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:05,877 Yes, but sometimes... 649 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:08,960 Yes, but sometimes, the damage they caused sometimes... 650 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,960 But you're not trying to excuse her. Him. 651 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:16,960 No, Nick. 652 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,960 I'm not trying to excuse your mother or him. 653 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:24,960 I'm saying... 654 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:31,960 ...all we can do is fight the best we can, and... 655 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:35,960 ...hope we prove to be a valiant opponent. 656 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:39,877 And personally speaking, I... 657 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:43,877 I am so proud to have been a part 658 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,717 of this great, valiant act. 659 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:48,960 Whatever happens... 660 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:54,960 ...know that. 661 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:16,960 OK. You're OK. 662 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:02,960 BALL BOUNCES 663 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,960 DOOR OPENS, FOOTSTEPS 664 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,960 Don't worry. You're before me. I'm just... 665 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:27,960 ...insanely, horrifically early. 666 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:31,877 It's Jacqui, isn't it? Yes. 667 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:35,077 I read your statement. Strong stuff. 668 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,877 Harrowing, punchy. Nick, by the way. 669 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:39,397 I know, and thank you. 670 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:41,960 Coming from you, that's... Thank you. 671 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,877 May I...? I mean, I hope it's OK to ask. 672 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,877 How's David? Oh. 673 00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:56,878 It's been a week since we spoke, 674 00:36:56,961 --> 00:36:59,960 but he's back in his house at least. 675 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:05,397 He won't take my calls. He will when he's ready. 676 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:07,917 It won't be you. It'll be him. 677 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:09,960 It's generally him. 678 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:13,557 He helped, by the way. 679 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:16,877 I'm not sure whether you're aware, but he helped all of us. 680 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:17,960 He was key. 681 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:21,960 We wouldn't be here without his help. 682 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:31,960 Sorry. I'll leave you to let you prep, run your lines. 683 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:37,878 Oh, God. 684 00:37:37,961 --> 00:37:39,877 I'm usually good with details, but for some reason today, 685 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:41,877 my mind keeps going blank. 686 00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,877 INHALES DEEPLY 687 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:46,557 SIGHS 688 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:47,960 I didn't sleep much. 689 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:53,877 I didn't sleep much last night. 690 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:54,878 Not a wink. 691 00:37:54,961 --> 00:37:57,717 But, then, I don't sleep. I'm not someone who sleeps. 692 00:37:57,800 --> 00:37:59,960 You always been like that? Since I was a boy, yeah. 693 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:04,360 Dave did tell you I wasn't a simple guy to understand, right? 694 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:10,960 I've had days recently where I can't remember my own name. 695 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:14,917 I've been in rooms full of people and forgotten why I'm even there. 696 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,640 I suffer, and I have done for years, from panic attacks. 697 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:23,800 Every time I sat down to write this statement, I'd... 698 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:28,877 But this morning, I woke up, and I felt clear, 699 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:30,877 clearer than I have done in years. 700 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:31,878 That's good. Yes. 701 00:38:31,961 --> 00:38:34,557 Just remember, 702 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:36,917 in the storm of all of this, 703 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,960 in all the mea culpa of... 704 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,397 ...News Of The World, 705 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:49,877 they decided that in the middle of this inquiry 706 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:52,960 to launch The Sun On Sunday. 707 00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:57,800 You're right. They're bold. 708 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:00,960 Hmm. 709 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:05,960 Hmm. 710 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:14,397 That thing you were doing with the ball, I don't mind, 711 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:15,877 if it helps to calm you. 712 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:18,877 Oh, come on. Drive you insane. I've been tested by bigger things. 713 00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:21,960 Please. Do what you need to do. 714 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,960 Oh. Yeah. 715 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:37,877 DISTANT SIREN WAILS 716 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:39,960 'I'll be honest. I'm scared of this inquiry.' 717 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,960 I'm scared because I think you'll take the wrong recommendations... 718 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,877 ...and because you'll destroy something which is precious 719 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:52,960 without rebuilding something better. 720 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:59,877 I don't want destroyed the notion of the unofficial source. 721 00:39:59,960 --> 00:40:01,960 Sue Akers has arrested... 722 00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:03,878 ...37, 38 people 723 00:40:03,961 --> 00:40:06,397 in the four inquiries she's been running. 724 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:11,077 There have been a couple of arrests of police officers 725 00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:14,877 in cases where I know quite a lot about the circumstances. 726 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:17,877 'What's happened there is those officers have been told 727 00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:20,877 'they will be charged with the common-law offence 728 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:23,877 'of misconduct in a public office. 729 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:26,877 'Despite, to the best of my knowledge, 730 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:29,960 'there being no allegation of any kind of bribe or inducement.' 731 00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,877 What those officers are being told is, "You will be charged", 732 00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:39,877 "and you can expect to get a prison term of up to 18 months" 733 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:43,877 "because you've spoken to a reporter without permission." 734 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:49,077 Now... these two cases are live, we don't know how they'll turn out. 735 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:51,877 May well be that the Crown Prosecution Service will say, 736 00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:54,877 "Hang on a moment. This doesn't apply." 737 00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:57,877 But... I think it's worrying, 738 00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,877 and this is in the wake of the phone hacking... 739 00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:01,878 I worry that it might be 740 00:41:01,961 --> 00:41:06,877 a completely unjustifiable and unnecessary backlash 741 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:08,397 to the allegation of collusion 742 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,877 between News International and the Met. 743 00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:16,877 And the ultimate effect here may be to prevent unauthorised contact 744 00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:19,800 between journalists and police. 745 00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:22,917 When, as a matter of fact, without this unauthorised contact, 746 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:24,877 the Metropolitan Police would've been allowed 747 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:27,877 to carry on misleading press, public and parliament 748 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:29,877 about this whole scandal. 749 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:31,877 I'm also scared that this inquiry 750 00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:34,960 might misstep in a different direction. 751 00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:41,397 Might soften itself... as it's attacked from outside sources. 752 00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:43,237 I have been under attack, in one form or another, 753 00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:45,877 ever since I first attempted to reveal the practice of hacking. 754 00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:47,557 And I-I-I... 755 00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:49,000 I represent here today... 756 00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:54,557 ...a team of people, all of whom have been under similar attacks. 757 00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:58,960 'I've had to face extraordinary things to be part of this fight. 758 00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:03,877 'They've done so because what you're doing here today 759 00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:05,960 'is precious. 760 00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:08,877 'News. 761 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:11,237 'I think... I think the best definition of it... 762 00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:14,960 'News is what someone somewhere doesn't want you to know.' 763 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:21,877 The most difficult, skilful, interesting, important... stuff 764 00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:25,877 that reporters do is about finding human sources 765 00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:28,877 and motivating them to help reveal that news. 766 00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:30,877 And I can... I can tell you 767 00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:32,960 of someone at the front line of that. 768 00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:37,960 News is also often what someone is reluctant to tell. 769 00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:42,877 So it's hard to motivate a human source 770 00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:44,960 to reveal their truth. 771 00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:48,877 I'd say, look, if I talk to you and they realise I've done this, 772 00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:50,960 then I'll lose my job or my career. 773 00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:54,877 Or I'll be beaten up, I'll be arrested, 774 00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:56,877 or embarrassed or ashamed. 775 00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:59,960 I will hurt people who love me. It's a very sensitive moment. 776 00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:03,480 You have to make those people safe. 777 00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:08,877 You have to make those people realise 778 00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:10,960 their truth is worth the risk. 779 00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:18,960 What these hackers did was about cutting out that human connection. 780 00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,077 These so-called journalists didn't find the truth. 781 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,960 They didn't persuade people to come with them. They just stole. 782 00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:30,480 They took. 783 00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:34,960 And humanity was lost in that moment. 784 00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:38,877 Not only in the privacy that was invaded, 785 00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:40,877 but also in the stories told from it. 786 00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:45,960 Our papers became dish rags of distorted content. 787 00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:52,960 And a set of rogue journalists working for a rogue corporation... 788 00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:56,800 ...undermine the very tenets of journalism... 789 00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:01,800 ...the very tenets of truth telling. 790 00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:10,877 If this inquiry succeeds, we may be able to rebuild our newspapers. 791 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:14,960 We may be able to make them what they should be. 792 00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:20,877 Fail... 793 00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:23,960 and News International will have trapped us all in their shadow. 794 00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,960 And I'm scared that we will never get out. 795 00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:05,960 INAUDIBLE 796 00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:12,320 INAUDIBLE 797 00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:21,160 INAUDIBLE 798 00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:27,960 INAUDIBLE 799 00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:34,960 INAUDIBLE 800 00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:39,960 INAUDIBLE 801 00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:47,960 INAUDIBLE 802 00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:02,480 INAUDIBLE 803 00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:23,480 INAUDIBLE 804 00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:32,160 INAUDIBLE 805 00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:55,640 INAUDIBLE 806 00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:50,960 INAUDIBLE 807 00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:54,960 INAUDIBLE 808 00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:59,160 INAUDIBLE 809 00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:06,960 INAUDIBLE 810 00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:13,000 Subtitles by accessibility@itv.com